Going over the book limits

[Horsethief]

A sweet-shooting 280 Rem with a Mauser 98 action has proved to be quite capable of safely going over the max published limits of several powders. I knew the loads in the current manuals were "loaded down" for the semi-auto 280s so going over the limits was not really a stretch.

Superformance works nicely with 150gn Sierra Game Kings, at just over 3100fps at the muzzle. H-4831 is nearly the same point of impact as the SF loads and RL-19 made a tiny group going between 3042 and 3055 at the muzzle.

If you're looking to get more velocity, increase your loads by 1 or 1.5gn at a time and check for signs of overpressure. You'll either find your accuracy going south OR signs of overpressure, and when either happens back off 2 grains, or more, and consider the limit "reached."

 

[OldMan]

That was my thinking for years, but now with better and more available testing equipment, I don't know! Some claim you may be way over pressure with no signs. I do believe the 280 and 30-06 should be safe at pressures above SAMMI standards, at least as high as the 270 winchester. The bolt lugs on a model 98 are soft enough to give instead of breaking, but would you want to bend them? :roll:

 

[CatskillCrawler]

I'm with you but I'm not...

If and when I push loads beyond printed data I'm more conservative. Bumping up your loads 1-1.5gr at a time is not safe. I increase most loads in .5 gr increments but only if that increase is not more than 1%. If the increase is more than 1% I use .3gr as the amount of increase.

I have increased several loads using this formula and have found a .5gr increase, over a load I considered to be safe with no overt pressure signs, revealed one or more signs that I was already at my rifle's maximum. Have found different lots of same named powder do the same at loads I considered to be safe.

Being overconfident without having the tools to accurately measure pressure isn't such a good thing.

 

[RiverRider]

I just look at the .270 data and go with that. Whatever can push a 150-grain Partition in a .270 can push a 150-grain Partition in a .280, and pressures should be a smidgeon lower too because of the lower sectional density of the 7mm bullet.

 

[Horsethief]

CatskillCrawler--I completely understand bumping loads up .5 grains at a time. I've done it many times with a few of my rifles. I stopped increasing the load when the accuracy started to be effected. Primers, primer pockets, bolt faces and lugs, case heads, case bodies, shoulders and necks are what I check on these max-plus loads. Everything checked out fine. Would you recommend other things to check?

With some of the loads I used 1 grain increases, and others got the 1.5, knowing the published 280 loads were set up for the semi-auto Rem 740s that need lower pressure for better case extraction and operating of their gas systems.

 

[Oldtrader3]

The .280 Rem has a slightly (.050) longer case to the headspace datum point than the .270. This usually allows some small increase of loading density for heavier bullets. I am extremely hesitant about going more than 0.5 grain increments with any load increases which are "above any book". Plus the .280 is the only caliber that I have increased loads at all much above Nosler #3, while using a chronograph at each .5 grain increment, very carefully. Getting an extra 50 fps is nowhere near worth shortening brass life and/or pounding the bolt lugs in any bolt action, particularly Mausers which are carburized only about .050 deep.

 

[PJGunner]

I guess I'm as guilty as anyone here when it comes to pushing the envelope at times.
I use my chronograph and measure case head and pressure ring as well. I do believe every powder performs best withing a specified pressure range, so if pressure is too low, it's inefficient or in the case of the slow burners S.E.E. becomes a distinct possibility. Once pressure gets too high, velocity becomes erratic. That is it can make a big jump or actually give no increase or a drop in speed. What I usually do is fire the shots over the chrony, and plot the speed vs the powder charge, notate the pressure ring and case head measurements for that three shot string. Then I do it again with the next charge up and so on until I reach what is the apparent max for that particular rifle. Velocity rise per charge increase is generally linear with a monor plus or minus factor. If you're approaching the book max and he rise stays linear, you can carefully go past the book max watching the velocity and pressure measurments very carefully. Usually the velocity will give you a warning first. Say the velocity has been increasing 30 FPS per hald grain increase and all of a sudden you get a 70 FPS jump. back off about a grain and a half and call it mx for that rifle. Or the velocity mau drop by 50 to 100 FPS or no increase at all. The I drop back 2.0 full grains and call it good. It definitely can vary with individual rifles. My Winchester m70 Featrweight in 7x57 does very well at 2800 FPS. A .5 increase in powder gave 2880 FPS but bolt lift was a tad sticky. part of that was it was 110 at the range that day so I stayed with the charge that gave 2800 FPS and called it good. That load will lock up the bolt tight in my custom 7x57 based on an FN Mauser. Some experimentation with the two rifles proved interesting. I loaded up some 175 gr. Hornady round nose bullets to duplicate the original 1892/93 loading for the 7x57 for the M70 and got 2310 FPS. That same load in the custom Mauser was exactly 100 FPS faster. That rifle has a tight chamber and a match grade barrel. That load also did 2290 FPS in my Ruer #1A.
I do have a nice .280 Rem. on a 1909 Argentine mauser but have not done any serious load work up for that rifle yet. I used to do all my load work ups in the summer heat but this year at 74 years old, the heat seems to be more oppresive than before. My shop is in an uninsulated shed and the A/C blows way too hard and my scales rock all over the place, especially the Chargemaster. I'm thinking that if I have to load anything, I'll have to be getting up around 3 or 4 in the morning while it's still somewhat cool.
I do believe certain cartridges can be loaded above book maximums if one is careful. The .257 Bob, 7x57, .280 Rem., 30-06 and .35 Whelen immediately come to mind. Just be very careful and keep an eye open for any radical velocity changes as that's the warning sign that has worked best for me. Use the graph as that give a quick visual on the change.
Paul B.

 

[JLC0311]

I really agree with Oldtrader, with loads that are approaching max loads .5 grains is the only way to do it.

However not only is each and every rifle different as to what it can do before it shows signs of high pressure, reloading data books can have a wide variation as well. If you read what I right you already know about my love affair with IMR4895, with data from Nosler with a max of 48 grains to Lee with a max of 52 grains with 168s in between those two are the data from Hodgdon and Sierra.

That's why I only work up in .5 grain increments loading up 5 rounds of each while watching very closely for any signs of excessive pressure.

When I was working up a long range Whitetail load in my old M70 Westerner 264 WinMag using 140 gr Sierra G/Ks and IMR 7828SSC on my second step up I had flattened primers and the lettering on the headstamp was disfigured. That was at 55 grains, only .5 grains over Hodgdon's starting load.

My go to 30/06 load is 1 grain over all the books except Lee's at 52 grains, but in a new rifle I would always work up to it.

Jimmy

 

[CatskillCrawler]

As stated by others, a chrony helps along with the physical observations you've mentioned. My only issue with your OP is the increment of increase you use. I don't mind blowing thru powder and components to find best accuracy and/or velocity. I think it's part of the equation. Patience and being humble to realize I don't know exactly where my loads are pressure-wise keep me in-line.

I agree wholeheartedly with this:

I do believe certain cartridges can be loaded above book maximums if one is careful. The .257 Bob, 7x57, .280 Rem., 30-06 and .35 Whelen immediately come to mind. Just be very careful and keep an eye open for any radical velocity changes as that's the warning sign that has worked best for me. Use the graph as that give a quick visual on the change.
Paul B.

Just look at the differences in various handloading books and you can see that even the experts don't agree as to what the max load for any cartridge/bullet/powder is. Why are parent cartridges loaded to less pressure then their offspring and vice-versa? It certainly gives creedence to us wanting to push the envelope. Hence our conversation here. :wink:

Bottom-line, I like my eyes, my firearms and range buddies. I would feel awful if I hurt any of these because I tried to take shortcuts.

 

[SJB358]

Each rifle is a law unto itself. It really doesn't take many rounds to work up a few grains and I look at it as a little more trigger time.. Watch the chrono and pay attention to what the gun and cases are telling you and it isn't rocket surgery. The manuals, QL, Google Machines are just guides, comes down to the loader or shooter doing the right thing and observing what is going on. I will admit, QL spoils me a little, I still like to read the manuals, but QL really helps out as it lets me tune in a little faster.

 

[bullet]

When using aids like reloading books and Q/L you have a guide, but don't exceed their guiding recommendations. Unless you are using pressure guages of some kind you really don't know where you are with pressure. The reloading books used a universal reciever or a specific gun and they reached max with the loads they posted for the gun they used to test the loads. Your gun could take more or it might not but you won't know that unless you have pressure guages to determine exactly where you are. Now that said, don't go over near max with Q/L or published book max loads in reloading books.

If when you get to the max charge of a reloading book or near max charge with Q/L and you are not happy with the velocities, then go and buy the next step up in the caliber you are using. Your brass might not show signs of being over max, the case might eject easily, but that does not change the fact that you just might be pushing the limits of your rifle, wearing out brass, eating away the throat at a faster rate and possibly stressing the gun to the point of some kind of failure whether minor or major and even putting yourself and anyone in your immedate area in danger. Not a good idea or practice to go over published max. Don't gamble with your rifle or possible injury while shooting it.

 

[Wincheringen]

I stop when I find an accurate load, fortunately I've never exceeded a published maximum load for a rifle.

Now, some of my handgun loads are out there as there just isn't data and with my shotshell stuff I use a different primer than the recipe calls for. I'm not in the dark on this stuff though, given the pressures of the loads I am not even close to maximum. I really don't care to push 60k PSI when its only 3" from my melon though.

 

[PJGunner]

OK, we all know that each individual rifle is an entity unto itself when it comes to what can be considered the maximum load for that individual cartridge. What would be an interesting experiment would be to take three or four rifles from the same manufacturor chambered to the same cartridge and on the line with consecutive numbers. Then work up to the max load for each rifle. It's be an expensive proposition even if the factories cooperated but interesting nonetheless. If I were to have the wherewithall to do such an experiment, I would probably pick on a popular cartridge in a rifle i could easily sell after all was over and done with. Today, if I were to try it with what I had on hand, I'd use the three J.C. Higgins M50's I have that were bought to be useds as donors. All three are 30-06 and all are in extremely good shape. Now if only my oil well or ship would come in I might be able to try such a thing. :roll: I'll have think about this for a while. Probably quite a while. I'm thinking the results would probably be what we already think and know but by just how much would the differences be? :?:
Paul B.

 

[onesonek]

I agree with most all the others input
1-1.5 gr. increases can go beyond safe in half that. But then it also depends if it is a known firearm or a new one. With a known firearm however, one has an idea of how it will act, but I still go with .5 gr. increments regardless. Just I may not always have to start at the bottom of the listed loads, when working up load ramps with several powders.
On another note, I have had tightly spec'd barrel's chambered in AI rounds, that were hot with near max parent loads. As Scotty said, each is a law unto it's own, and caution is always first.

Now the other thing with the .280 is, it was spec'd a bit on the light side to begin with. With that it isn't unusual to find a combination in a strong action, that exceeds most manuals. Now I like to push things to see what the firearm is capable of, but I always back off from that once I know. Then I load that combination for accuracy.trying to stay 1 gr. below the max.. That extra 50-75 fps and shorter brass life, really isn't going to make much difference in the field.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Yes, the SAAMI specs for the 280 are low due to the few semi-auto's out there chambered in that round. In such instances, I load to the strength of the action I'm using. As previously mentioned, the .270 Win is a close comparrision to the .280. Just remember when making such comparisions, it's important to remember that the greater the bottle neck the greater the pressure, so it's typically safe to compare to a cartridge with a smaller caliber, as opposed to a larger caliber. i.e it's ok to compare to a .270 load data, but do not compare it to 30.06 load data.

 

[nvbroncrider]

I really agree with Oldtrader, with loads that are approaching max loads .5 grains is the only way to do it.

However not only is each and every rifle different as to what it can do before it shows signs of high pressure, reloading data books can have a wide variation as well. If you read what I right you already know about my love affair with IMR4895, with data from Nosler with a max of 48 grains to Lee with a max of 52 grains with 168s in between those two are the data from Hodgdon and Sierra.

That's why I only work up in .5 grain increments loading up 5 rounds of each while watching very closely for any signs of excessive pressure.

When I was working up a long range Whitetail load in my old M70 Westerner 264 WinMag using 140 gr Sierra G/Ks and IMR 7828SSC on my second step up I had flattened primers and the lettering on the headstamp was disfigured. That was at 55 grains, only .5 grains over Hodgdon's starting load.

My go to 30/06 load is 1 grain over all the books except Lee's at 52 grains, but in a new rifle I would always work up to it.

Jimmy

I agree whole heartly. I had one experience with hodgon data that scared the piss outta me and blew a primer on a minimum load in a 6-284. I like getting my hands on enough information to make an educated decision versus just jumping off the bridge. I though I was safe since the loads gramps sent with the gun were 52 gr of 4350 and hodgeon had listed 48 as a min for a 100 grain bullet. It seemed to be reasonable. So I tried it and it truly was an eye opener and a reminder that this hobby we enjoy has some risks.